New mixer and soundcard - output going back into input

Hi y’all,

I am recording for the first time with a Behringer Eurorack MX802A mixer and E-mu 1212 soundcard. I’m just getting to know my way around mixers in general and was having some problems laying down overdub tracks in an old Audacity project. (I’m using Audacity v.1.3.4, because the ‘stable’ version started crashing on me as I kept adding more tracks.)

My problem is that when I recorded my guitar part, not only could I barely hear the guitar, but the rest of the Audacity mix was somehow getting fed back into the input. I tweaked around with the E-mu Patchmix and my physical mixer settings, but couldn’t get this problem to go away.

I currently have the outs in my soundcard going to the AUX Returns (1) in my mixer. Is this correct? Basically, I want to be able to monitor my guitar performance and the rest of the Audacity mix in my headphones, but only have the guitar actually feed into the input that’s being recorded. I basically don’t know where to go from here.

My suspicion is that the problem lies with my physical mixer configuration, rather than Patchmix, but who knows. Also, my understanding is that AUX Sends/Returns are primarily for adding effects, so I could be ignorant and using the AUX Returns incorrectly. However, I know I need to get the signal of the previously recorded tracks back to the mixer somehow, so I can play along. There just doesn’t appear to be any obvious inputs for this. Should I be connecting the soundcard outs to a set of line inputs. Is there a way to monitor-only specific line inputs while recording others? I know this is a bare bones, and quite old, mixer, but it seems like there should be a straightforward way to do what I want to do.

Thanks for anybody’s input on this,
Panda

A lot of this depends on how you have the Mixer set up and you didn’t really describe too much.

The only thing I can say for sure right now is that if you removed the sound card out → mixer aux in connection, and then connected the sound card out → a headphone amp then your problem will go away.

It may still be possible to use the mixer to control both the input and the output, but I don’t know enough about the mixer.

refer to related question at

http://audacityteam.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6316

I do know how to fix your live signal contamination problem, but there is another factor you need to consider when working with your old projects.

In Audacity 1.2, there is substantial signal path latency that causes noticeable time skew between the old canned and live new tracks in the Audacity project. Manual de-skewing is unsatisfactory. Audacity 1.3 has a latency de-skew parameter. I recommend that you use Audacity 1.3 to record your new tracks.

In any case, you still need to be able to monitor your canned tracks without contaminating your new live track. I recommend that you disconnect your external monitor patch path and try one of these methods instead.

Note that in any of these methods you still have lots of flexibility to re-route effects sends and returns with patchmix or your external mixer so be careful and use your imagination. I am giving bare-bones instructions only.

Method 1) Quick and dirty but low quality, use Audacity to monitor the canned/live mix

external mixer instructions:

send the live in to the line in of the sound card or some other input such as adat etc. if you have the capability

pass through the line out from the sound card to the amp

patchmix instructions:

right-click on the live input patch bay in patchmix that you want to send from i.e. I/O card in L or R, and select ‘Insert Send (Output to ASIO/WAVE or Physical Out)’ menu choice

the pop-up dialog box will present you with ‘Select send Output’ multiple choice box that contains a pre-selected choice representing the first available resource on the list, probably HOST ASIO IN 1/2 or 3/4 or whatever

left-click on the form field and select HOST WAVE L/R, then click OK

mute the attenuator on the input slot and zero the aux1/2 effects sends – you do not want to hear any live signal from anywhere but Audacity

insert the HOST WAVE 1/2 input slot

adjust main mix and effects sends of the (HOST WAVE 1/2 input slot) canned plus software play-through signal

Audacity instructions:

edit - preferences - audio I/O - check both overdub and software play-through

Advantages:
simply accomplished

preserves flexibility in the external mixer

live effects can be added either in the external signal path or in the patchmix input slot effects bay, and the effects will all be equally present both in the recorded track and in the monitor mix

Disadvantages:
there may still be substantial signal path delay – from the input signal you generate while performing, to the play-through monitor output signal that reaches your ears. The delay might confuse your chops. Use the direct X drivers for record and playback to minimize this delay, but there is no way to completely eliminate it.

there is no separate live input mixer attenuator in Audacity to adjust the monitor mix. Adjusting the input level will corrupt the recording level, and adjusting the separate output levels of prior tracks will corrupt the canned mix. Either way, there is no viable solution to obtain a quality monitor mix without severe trade-offs.

this method might not work with other sound cards. Some sound cards are internally configured to monitor their own live mix and selecting software play-through in Audacity too causes regenerative feedback. there is basically no way to do multitrack overdub with those (usually older) sound cards.

there is no way to independently control the monitor mix with a single external volume control knob. all monitor mix must be controlled via mouse and keyboard.

Method 2) Simple but high quality, use Patchmix to monitor the canned/live mix.

external mixer instructions:

send the live in to the line in of the sound card or some other input such as adat etc. if you have the capability

pass through the line out from the sound card to the amp

patchmix instructions:

right-click on the live input patch bay in patchmix that you want to send from, and select ‘Insert Send (Output to ASIO/WAVE or Physical Out)’ menu choice

the pop-up dialog box will present you with ‘Select send Output’ multiple choice box that contains a pre-selected choice representing the first available resource on the list, probably HOST ASIO IN 1/2 or 3/4 or whatever

left-click on the form field and select HOST WAVE L/R, then click OK

insert the HOST WAVE 1/2 input slot

adjust main mix and effects sends of both the canned (HOST WAVE 1/2 input slot) and the live (I/O card in L or R input slot) signals

Audacity instructions:

edit - preferences - audio I/O - check overdub and uncheck software play-through

Advantages:
simply accomplished

preserves flexibility in the external mixer

live effects can be added either in the external signal path or in the patchmix input slot effects bay, and the effects will all be equally present both in the recorded track and in the monitor mix

Windows software latency from live performance to your ears is eliminated, leaving only trivial hardware DSP latency that is negligible and should not affect your chops at all.

the monitor mix can be saved in a patchmix configuration file for later instant retrieval

Disadvantages:

there is no way to independently control the monitor mix with a single external volume control knob. all monitor mix must be controlled via mouse and keyboard.

Method 3) Quick and convenient to control but inflexible, use your external mixer to control the monitor mix

external mixer instructions:
route an external mixer monitor send via dedicated monitor mix or use a spare external mixer effects send to add live signal directly to your external mixer live/canned mix

fork the live input via an auxiliary output that connects to your sound card input.

follow the instructions for method 1, except use the Audacity set-up instructions for method 2.

Advantages:
gives single-knob control of the live mix directly on your external mixer while preserving the live recording path levels

simple to set up

Windows software latency from live performance to your ears is eliminated, leaving only trivial hardware latency in the external mixer that is negligible and should not affect your chops at all.

disadvantages:
may use up external mixer outputs and effects channels

may complicate the use of software effects on the live channel

monitor mix cannot be saved easily to a configuration file

Method 4) combine methods 2 and 3 to get the best of both worlds

instructions:
left as an exercise to the reader but basically it means routing the live signal from an aux effects or monitor send out of the external mixer then into and out of patchmix then through an external live monitor or effects return in the mixer – while forking post-effects live signal into Audacity with the WAVE L/R plugin

advantages:
simple in-line patching of both hardware effects in the external mixer and software effects in patchmix

preserves effects in both the recorded signal and in the live monitor signal

allows for easily accessible external volume control knob

disadvantages:
too complicated to describe in words without actually having the actual equipment in hand

cannot save the external mixer configuration to a file easily


In any of these methods you can combine both hardware and software effects if you are clever and careful what you are doing.

The best solution to your problem depends on if you are doing any live performance and recording simultaneously, or if you are just doing studio recording. It also depends on how you do your final mixdown and if live input is part of that process or not. Usually, live input will only be incorporated into mixdown if there are equipment limitations driving the decision, for example the effects routing or number of tracks in the recording application.

Recommendation:
Use only Audacity 1.3 and disable software play-through if you have either patchmix or an external mixer. They both have superior methods of monitoring the live/canned mix.

I use method 2 but if I were serious about recording with free software I would use method 3 because it requires the least tweaking to go from live recording to final mix configurations. If using method 2 it can get messy trying to insert external effects during live recording.