Alternative download location

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Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by majkinetor » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:08 am

Hello.

I am from the team that maintains Audacity package on Chocolatey repository:
https://chocolatey.org/packages/audacity

We aim to provide up to date version of many tools similar to how linux package managers work.

We have a problem that audacity is hosted on Foshub which is not automation friendly - they constantly change web site and have weird restrictions that they change every couple of days radically to prevent automatic downloading.

Is there any alternative download location that keeps latest Audacity version (all versions would be ideal) ?
If not, would audacity devs/admins be ready to provide it ?

If this is not the right place to ask this quistion please le me know where I should direct it.

Thanks.
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by steve » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:33 am

FossHub is the only official download partner for Audacity.
Given that Audacity is free software, and expenses are primarily met from advertising revenue generated by FossHub downloads, I don't see that it would be in the best interests of Audacity to give the Audacity download partnership, hence Audacity's income, to your company unless you are offering substantial financial compensation for the lost income. You are of course, under the terms of the GPLv2 license, free to distribute Audacity, but please understand that in so doing, you are taking revenue, that supports the continued development of Audacity, away from Audacity. A business model based on taking from open source without giving back can not be sustainable in the long run.

If you believe that you have a proposition that is of mutual benefit to yourselves and to Audacity, please contact Audacity via the feedback address (the "email us" address on this page: http://www.audacityteam.org/contact/)
9/10 questions are answered in the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ)
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by majkinetor » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:57 am

Given that Audacity is free software, and expenses are primarily met from advertising revenue generated by FossHub downloads, I don't see that it would be in the best interests of Audacity to give the Audacity download partnership, hence Audacity's income, to your company unless you are offering substantial financial compensation for the lost income.

This is not the point at all. Chocolatey is foss community service just like apt-get, yum and friends. The point is not to be another download site like foshub but to provide ecosystem that engineers and alike can thrive on. We want to fill the hole of repository manager missing in Windows and we dont do it for the money but to make the Windows better place to live and work on. Commercial chocolatey variant does exist but its use case is different and its not relevant to this discussion.

This is not different then what for example we have on ArchLinux (https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/i686/audacity/) or Ubuntu (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntuhandbook1/ ... u/audacity). Actually, we encourage you to add information about Chocolatey in your download section so windows users can only do `choco install audacity` and `choco update audacity` at any point later. Its also convenient for testing different versions: `choco install aduacity -version x.y.z`. Our bot keeps stuff up to date and you can always see report about it on Github.
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by steve » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:11 pm

I appreciate your point majkinetor, but
(a) FossHub is currently the only official download location for Audacity binaries. (the source code is available on GitHub)
(b) The Audacity team unanimously agree that they want to keep Audacity free of charge for users
(c) The long term sustainability of the Audacity project is important
(d) There are expenses even for free software that have to be met
and importantly...
(e) It's not my decision ;) (or anyone on this forum).

If you wish to discus your proposition regarding distribution of Audacity, you really need to speak to the Audacity team. For initial contact with the team, please use the 'feedback' email address.
9/10 questions are answered in the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ)
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:47 pm

majkinetor wrote:
Given that Audacity is free software, and expenses are primarily met from advertising revenue generated by FossHub downloads, I don't see that it would be in the best interests of Audacity to give the Audacity download partnership, hence Audacity's income, to your company unless you are offering substantial financial compensation for the lost income.

This is not the point at all. Chocolatey is foss community service just like apt-get, yum and friends. The point is not to be another download site like foshub but to provide ecosystem that engineers and alike can thrive on. We want to fill the hole of repository manager missing in Windows and we dont do it for the money but to make the Windows better place to live and work on. Commercial chocolatey variant does exist but its use case is different and its not relevant to this discussion.

This is not different then what for example we have on ArchLinux (https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/i686/audacity/) or Ubuntu (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntuhandbook1/ ... u/audacity). Actually, we encourage you to add information about Chocolatey in your download section so windows users can only do `choco install audacity` and `choco update audacity` at any point later. Its also convenient for testing different versions: `choco install aduacity -version x.y.z`. Our bot keeps stuff up to date and you can always see report about it on Github.

Potential loss of ad revenue is (one of) the points for us though, because you are talking about Windows and our major "market" is Windows. It doesn't sound like you are proposing to pay us anything.

The argument of loss of ad revenue can also be raised against Audacity going into the Windows Store, though that has benefits too if we did it, because that would be the officially supported Desktop Audacity, converted via "Desktop Bridge" to "Universal Windows Platform" (UWP). Microsoft would take care of signing the app. We would have to then support the UWP Audacity with whatever limitations the sandboxing imposed on it.

In contrast I read at https://chocolatey.org/docs/community-packages-disclaimer that these packages are designedly not supported by the software manufacturer and not safe for use as production software. Regardless it would be expected that most users with a problem would still come to us about it because that is what users are like.

I would imagine that ultimately the Windows Subsystem for Linux (Windows 10 only of course) will offer a full range of working GUI apps via apt-get (not just CLI apps which is the case now). If so, then users can get supported Linux versions of Audacity that way. Until then there are already other GUI applications that can automatically update and install Windows versions of open source apps including Audacity (with default options).

Anyway to get to your point, have you asked FossHub about this issue? If they can't help, it isn't hard to find mirrors of Audacity. Just choose a mirror that is safe and run the download through VirusTotal before you package it.


Gale
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by ferventcoder » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:07 pm

I understand ad revenue is a concern. I'm not sure how we can help with that, other than offering you some ability to place those ads on the community repository if you were to maintain the package for audacity. Right now it's considered a taboo to have any advertising on the site, but we could consider it at some point if is a make or break kind of thing for you.

As majkinetor mentioned, the Chocolatey community is really about making things simpler. Getting software on Windows and keeping it up to date should not be a manual (and painful) process. We've proven it is possible to automate the process, we have 5 years, thousands of users and hundreds of organizations that would back up that statement. Currently we interact with FossHub to download from your official distribution location so you are still seeing your download counts and getting statistics from those downloads.

I'd encourage reading over https://chocolatey.org/about if you would like to learn more.
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by ferventcoder » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:23 pm

In contrast I read at https://chocolatey.org/docs/community-p ... disclaimer that these packages are designedly not supported by the software manufacturer and not safe for use as production software. Regardless it would be expected that most users with a problem would still come to us about it because that is what users are like.


This is a disclaimer. And this only applies to the community package repository.

It reads "Packages found on the community repository may not be supported by the original software vendor." To me that is not the same meaning as "designedly not supported by the software manufacturer".

For the most part, maintainers are volunteers, but we also have companies that maintain their own packages on the repository, like Jetbrains, SmartFTP, Puppet, Chef, etc. We even have documentation for vendors when it comes to better understanding Chocolatey and in providing them support in maintaining their own packages - https://chocolatey.org/docs/package-tri ... are-vendor

Regarding "not safe for use as production software" - it's not a matter of safety for the most part, because we run VirusTotal against every package and the software it represents automatically as part of the approval process and verify the integrity of the downloads meets what was originally checked. It's more a matter of the point that we don't recommend organizations using Chocolatey to use the community repository because of copyright law (distribution rights). Typically folks do not have the permissions to redistribute, so they can't simply embed the software IN the package and must download it at runtime from the official location. As majkinetor mentioned, sometimes that breaks and those packages are broken until fixed.

"Due to software distribution rights, many of the packages contained on the community repository must download actual software from official distribution points, thus creating a dependency on those internet locations not changing (and from time to time they do, thus breaking a package until it is updated). This introduces a failure point for the community repository that is not found with internal packages."

The last point that is interesting here is that you mentioned GPL licensing does allow redistribution, so that may be an avenue to reduce breakages.

At the end of the day though, we love your software product. So does our community (that is still in a huge growth phase, 35 million total installs last year, almost 80 million total installs this year), and for package maintenance we are simply looking for better options regarding FossHub's policies. If we can find an agreeable solution towards the revenue loss, I think that is win-win for both the Windows community and the Audacity folks.
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:36 pm

ferventcoder wrote:I understand ad revenue is a concern. I'm not sure how we can help with that, other than offering you some ability to place those ads on the community repository if you were to maintain the package for audacity. Right now it's considered a taboo to have any advertising on the site, but we could consider it at some point if is a make or break kind of thing for you.

Then please propose that or some other idea direct to Audacity Team via our feedback address.

ferventcoder wrote:As majkinetor mentioned, the Chocolatey community is really about making things simpler. Getting software on Windows and keeping it up to date should not be a manual (and painful) process.

As I pointed out, it is not a manual and painful process You can do it with GUI apps, even though it is not Linux style package management. Such apps will be far more comfortable for many Windows users than PowerShell and CLI.


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* * * * * Tips * * * * * Tutorials * * * * * Quick Start Guide * * * * * Audacity Manual
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by ferventcoder » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:43 pm

steve wrote:FossHub is the only official download partner for Audacity.
Given that Audacity is free software, and expenses are primarily met from advertising revenue generated by FossHub downloads, I don't see that it would be in the best interests of Audacity to give the Audacity download partnership, hence Audacity's income, to your company unless you are offering substantial financial compensation for the lost income. You are of course, under the terms of the GPLv2 license, free to distribute Audacity, but please understand that in so doing, you are taking revenue, that supports the continued development of Audacity, away from Audacity. A business model based on taking from open source without giving back can not be sustainable in the long run.

If you believe that you have a proposition that is of mutual benefit to yourselves and to Audacity, please contact Audacity via the feedback address (the "email us" address on this page: http://www.audacityteam.org/contact/)


A business model based on taking from open source without giving back can not be sustainable in the long run.


Actually you are touching on a philanthropy that is near and dear to my heart. Chocolatey (the company, not the community that you were previously speaking of) just introduced a business model in May 2016 for Chocolatey that will support the long-term costs of development, and the costs of infrastructure for the community repository. Unlike Audacity, which works off of ad revenue, all of Chocolatey's infrastructure and costs have been supported previously by me (an individual), and a small group of sponsors that have helped with infrastructure costs. Chocolatey itself is a framework and other than the time of folks who develop it, it doesn't really have costs in that regard. The true costs come in supporting the community repository and the community.

I understand ad revenue may be a necessary evil for some folks, I just believe there are better options out there.

In the end, the community repository adds in a discovery of software for folks who would not have otherwise heard of tools like Audacity. The community and those maintaining the packages love tools like Audacity, thus the maintainers free of charge and without any revenue to them, offer a better way for folks to get software to Windows. So it's weird to them (the community of unpaid volunteers) to hear "to your company unless you are offering substantial financial compensation for the lost income.". Once you understand this context, hopefully you see as well why it doesn't make much sense. They are not a company, they are not getting any revenue themselves.

I digress. Anyway, a philanthropy to support the continued development of free and open source tools for Windows is something that Chocolatey Software would ultimately love to do for the Windows community at some point. I've wanted to have a philanthropy to do that ever since I read Jeff Atwood's post on this in 2008 - https://blog.codinghorror.com/donating-5000-to-net-open-source/.
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Re: Alternative download location

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:48 pm

ferventcoder wrote:
In contrast I read at https://chocolatey.org/docs/community-p ... disclaimer that these packages are designedly not supported by the software manufacturer and not safe for use as production software. Regardless it would be expected that most users with a problem would still come to us about it because that is what users are like.


This is a disclaimer. And this only applies to the community package repository.

Unfortunately, users without in-depth knowledge of Chocolatey, like me, will draw inferences from whatever they see by skim-reading your site. So I assumed that your "Packages" tab contained the same packages that you would obtain by using a CLI call, considering that the CLI call is shown on that page.

ferventcoder wrote:a failure point for the community repository that is not found with internal packages

So if there are internal packages, how do you obtain and install those and how do they differ from community packages? Are there fewer of them? Is there already one for Audacity?


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