Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Remova

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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by Paul L » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:58 pm

sizemore,

I'm the one who rewrote the effect. Thank you for your feedback, but if you do not specify which precise settings you used, then these comments and the example files are not helpful to me. You can get bad results with either effect, if the settings are not appropriate.

I am guessing that you did vary the settings from the defaults. Then you were using Frequency Smoothing of zero with Noise Reduction in 2.1.0. We now regret that choice of default setting, and changed it to 3 in 2.1.2. In fact 6 is the real equivalent of the default 150 Hz smoothing of old Noise Reduction.

You can easily adjust that slider in 2.1.0. I predict you will have much more satisfactory results. Comparing frequency smoothing of 3 to 6 in the new effect is the fairer comparison with the old effect's defaults.

Paul


sizemore wrote:Hello; I was just coming to the forum to post a question asking if anybody else thinks the old Noise Removal was far superior to the new Noise Reduction. I saw this post and just decided to add my thoughts and experiences to it.

My home studio is not 100% soundproof and silent. When I record vocals with my excellent microphone, there is additional sound picked up. Yet I want only the vocals in the recording. The old Noise Removal, combined with the Generate Silence feature, gives me perfect results --- but the new Noise Reduction feature is totally unsatisfactory.

Noise Reduction does not remove as much unwanted background noise; plus, as the original poster mentioned, it has a tendency to add a metallic noise (to well-recorded audio) on the first pass --- whereas Noise Removal will only add a metallic noise (to well-recorded audio) if you make multiple passes with it --- which I never have to do with my vocals. (Both Noise Reduction and Noise Removal will add metallic noise to audio files which contain a lot of background noise.)

I have two computers, side-by-side: the old computer with Audacity 2.0.5 and Noise Removal, and the new computer with Audacity 2.1.0 and Noise Reduction. I do ALL my vocals recording on the old computer, so I can enjoy the benefits of Audacity 2.0.5 and Noise removal.

Also, if I download or scrape an online audio recording which contains unwanted noise, Noise removal is far superior than Noise Reduction.

You asked for examples: please hear attached 3 different versions of a scraped audio file which contains a good bit of background noise (I think it's wind). The 1st 7 seconds is the Raw file; the 2nd is same file with Noise Reduction; the 3rd is with Noise Removal. You will notice that, because of the significant amount of background noise, both Noise reduction and Noise Removal add a bit of metallic noise --- but Noise Removal demonstrates superior results and less metallic noise. (Please note: even though the wav file was 4 MB, and therefore the upload should not have been rejected by this platform, I was forced to upload mp3, instead, due to file size.)

If I were forced to choose only one Audacity to use, it would be 2.0.5, because of this subject under discussion.

Why not add Noise Removal back to the new versions of Audacity, so people can choose which feature they wish to use, under different circumstances?
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by Paul L » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:10 pm

Robert J. H. wrote:I'm not a fan of the new effect either.

Robert


I would especially like to know what Robert finds unsatisfactory.

Noise Reduction may not be the best effect of its kind, but I believe it is a great improvement over the Noise Removal that preceded it in Audacity. I explained the many technical problems with old Noise Removal at this link, which I am sure Robert will easily understand.

http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Propo ... l_Licameli

PRL
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:56 pm

I'm with Koz and Paul here - in much preferring the new Noise Reduction over the old effect.

I use Noise Reduction 3 times a week for pro-bono professional purposes to clean up captures of webstreams from Dublin City FM for a couple of DJ friends of mine so they can post "Listen Again" versions of their live shows for folk that can't catch the live webstream (or FM) output. These broadcasts/webcasts area mixture of music and voice.

The Dublin City FM webstream is consistently noisy every time I connect (much noiser than the BBC say or Oucast Radio that I listen to regularly). I now use Noise Reduction with the new 2.1.2 default settings of 12/6/3 and this produces much better results than I ever achieved with the old Noise Removal.

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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by cyrano » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:45 pm

Noise reduction is about the only thing I use frequently in Audacity. The new version took a little time to adjust to, but it is a lot better. Period.
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by Robert J. H. » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:39 pm

Paul L wrote:
Robert J. H. wrote:I'm not a fan of the new effect either.

Robert


I would especially like to know what Robert finds unsatisfactory.

Noise Reduction may not be the best effect of its kind, but I believe it is a great improvement over the Noise Removal that preceded it in Audacity. I explained the many technical problems with old Noise Removal at this link, which I am sure Robert will easily understand.

http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Propo ... l_Licameli

PRL


That quote of me is a bit cut out of the context... ;)
I acknowledge the improvements of the new versus the old effect entirely.

What I do not like is that the three parameters are so much coupled and that their meaning is somewhat obscured now.

I would naively expect that 24 dB noise reduction would end up in, well guess what...
Ok, I have to set sensitivity accordingly but how should I set it in order to get the desired reduction?
It was formerly expressed in dB but now it is a unit-less parameter--same as the smoothing actually.
From other effects, I would expect to have a "Input Gain" slider or something of sorts that let's me adjust the threshold (-offset) in comparison to the profile.
And, of course, the smoothing has also an impact on the outcome and the levels.
There are some technically advanced (possible) improvements that could lead to even better results and I've mentioned them several times before.
Just exemplary:
- smoothing in a musical way (fraction of octaves or MEL scale)
- zero-padding
- profile preprocessing, e.g. removing vertical streaks such as clicks and/or sweeps, considering phase fluctuation and so on.
- dynamically changing frame- and hop-sizes for different sample rates
At some point, it might be even necessary to split the effect for specialized tasks per Presets for instance.

I really have to rebuild the effect in Nyquist in order to judge such modifications properly.

Robert
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by polartitan1 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:04 am

Yeah..I have the same problem as well. Audacity was perfect, but I lost my computer so I bought an exact copy and redid the settings with the exception of the new audacity, and its AWFUL. When I do noise reduction it "damages" my audio and keeps the background noise the same. Really poor quality now and its leaving me irritated. I downloaded an older version and it works fine now.

And before you ask, Yes I have a popfilter and not only that but a room designed and accessorized for limit background noise. Everything is perfect with the exception of the new noise reduction update. It needs to be fixed because I almost left for good because of it.
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:06 pm

polartitan1 wrote:Yeah..I have the same problem as well. Audacity was perfect, but I lost my computer so I bought an exact copy and redid the settings with the exception of the new audacity, and its AWFUL. When I do noise reduction it "damages" my audio and keeps the background noise the same. Really poor quality now and its leaving me irritated. I downloaded an older version and it works fine now.

Noise Reduction is not the same effect as Noise Removal so you cannot use the same settings as you did in Noise Removal. Here is how to use Noise Reduction: http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/noise_reduction.html.

We can't "fix" Noise Reduction" unless you give us example files in WAV (a) Noise only (b) Noise with your voice that demonstrate the problem. For the few people who have given us such files, we solved their problem by telling them the correct settings to use. Almost certainly you could solve your issue with Noise Reduction by increasing "Frequency Smoothing".


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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by kozikowski » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:25 pm

I wonder if this effect is named after somebody? Software or other product improvement that causes customer problems.

Photoshop went through this. They upgraded one version and changed the tool order and short-forms. In one swoop, millions of experienced artists became new users. > Firestorm

I join an impressive number of Audacity users who never got Noise Removal to do anything useful, in addition to being badly named.

Imagine my surprise when a tiny coterie turned up who considered Noise Removal a gift from the angels; other products need not apply.

I did notice the problems all had to do with one specific job. Nobody complained about Noise Reduction being a poor "generic" tool.

We have been able to generate Noise Reduction settings for Music and AudioBook reading, notoriously difficult to achieve. Nobody ever got Noise Removal to pass ACX AudioBook Compliance.

Koz
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Re: Problems with the new Noise Reduction replacing Noise Re

Permanent link to this post Posted by Paul L » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:14 pm

polartitan1 wrote:Yeah..I have the same problem as well. Audacity was perfect, but I lost my computer so I bought an exact copy and redid the settings with the exception of the new audacity, and its AWFUL. When I do noise reduction it "damages" my audio and keeps the background noise the same. Really poor quality now and its leaving me irritated. I downloaded an older version and it works fine now.

And before you ask, Yes I have a popfilter and not only that but a room designed and accessorized for limit background noise. Everything is perfect with the exception of the new noise reduction update. It needs to be fixed because I almost left for good because of it.


Tell us the exact settings that were used for the effect's sliders. Otherwise this criticism is not helpful to us.
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