24-Bit Recording Status

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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by UweB » Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:13 pm

Would this one do: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Emagic-A-2-6-V1-7a-USB-mobilen-Audio-Interface-funktionsfahig-/311521799778?hash=item4888256e62? The price doesn't hurt too much... What about the mysterious firmware loader, would I have to fear that it wouldn't work without it?

I read a test (http://www.emusician.com/gear/1332/emagic-emi-26-usb-audio-interface/32738) and it it somewhat irritating, e.g., I read: "I was unable to achieve any form of 24-bit operation under Cakewalk Sonar, because Sonar doesn't support ASIO or EASI drivers. (According to Emagic, I should have used the Windows MME driver.)" Didn't i just learn that MME does not support 24 bit and never did?
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by cyrano » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:28 am

UweB wrote:Would this one do: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Emagic-A-2-6-V1-7a-USB-mobilen-Audio-Interface-funktionsfahig-/311521799778?hash=item4888256e62? The price doesn't hurt too much... What about the mysterious firmware loader, would I have to fear that it wouldn't work without it?


Yes. No firmware means nothing works. You won't even get a power led.

The firmware is a simple tftp app on the Mac. And the firmware used to be available on Linux 't ill a few kernel versions ago. Then it got dropped because of license problems, which is kind of silly. I saw a page from someone who was using 3 units in parallel to record 18 channels on Linux.

Both devices use the same firmware. To use them in parallel on Linux, each one needs to be on a separate USB bus.

For that price, I'd go for it. The last one I saw on the bay was like 125 € and pretended to be brand new. :o

I think I have most versions of the firmware loader for Windows archived somewhere. It's not a big file, so I could mail it if you need it. You can also find it on old Logic installer CD's. And these don't need to be really ancient. It was still on the Logic version 7 or 8 disc, IIRC.

It's old software and I've never tried it on Windows myself. AFAIK it works with XP. On OSX it worked till 10.6 and I had to change some permissions for more recent systems. An exercise I haven't done for the latest system yet, but mine run well under Mavericks and Yosemite.

I read a test (http://www.emusician.com/gear/1332/emagic-emi-26-usb-audio-interface/32738) and it it somewhat irritating, e.g., I read: "I was unable to achieve any form of 24-bit operation under Cakewalk Sonar, because Sonar doesn't support ASIO or EASI drivers. (According to Emagic, I should have used the Windows MME driver.)" Didn't i just learn that MME does not support 24 bit and never did?


I don't know about Windows, but reading this:

Note that 96 kHz support is not yet implemented on the Mac, although it may be by the time you read this.


leads me to the conclusion that he must have been running a very early driver version. 96 kHz is limited to 2 channels, in stead of 6 because of the limited bandwidth of USB1.1. From memory, I think there are only 3 or 4 versions of the driver, despite Emagic relabeling the device from 2|6 to A26.

With the later firmware, the hardware switches on the interface no longer work with the Mac, as everything can be switched from software. I guess it's the same on Windows.

TBH, I never used 96 kHz much with these interfaces, as it limits the number of channels.
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by cyrano » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:43 am

And according to this, the firmware loader works with Win 7:

http://mtippach.proboards.com/thread/25 ... ks-problem

And several tricks to load firmware from other systems, even in a VM. :ugeek:
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:57 am

UweB wrote:Didn't i just learn that MME does not support 24 bit and never did?

Yes, it's 16-bit 44100 Hz only internally.


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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by UweB » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:30 am

Cyrano,

thank you for your firmware offer. I'm still not really certain whether the Emagic a) would work at all on my PC and b) whether it would produce a 96/24 stereo signal. It should be a USB Audio Class 1 (UAC1) device and I expect such a device to be plug-and-play. Reading http://mtippach.proboards.com/thread/25%20...%20ks-problem makes it even worse: Dual boot, Win 7, install a virtual machine, ASIO, reboot... That doesn't make me confident at all. Moreover: A firmware loader (which implicates different firmwares for the interface), up to now designed for up to XP only where, due to MME, more than 16 bit never could have been expected...

BTW, MME, DirectSound and WASAPI:
Yes, it's 16-bit 44100 Hz only internally.
I read something similar, too. But the fact that using MME we get 96 and even 192 kHz recordings (but 16 bit only) tells me, that you shouldn't believe everything you read (or you shouldn't believe that you understand what is written...)

Similar: Chris wrote that "WASAPI is the lowest level at which Windows accesses audio hardware. DirectSound is built on top of WASAPI." But wasn't WASAPI introduced after DirectSound? Or has WASAPI later been inserted underneath DirectSound in the sound processing stack (or however it is called in Windows)?

UAC1 and different sample rates and sample widths: As we all know, UAC1 is based on USB1.1 and thus limited to 12 Mbit/s gross and ~11 Mbit/s net. AFAIK, for UAC1 all other aspects are not limited. I.e., you can freely chose sample rate, sample width, number of channels, and input and/or output. When we designed our interface we hoped that that would be true and in fact, up to 96/24 and 192/16, operating as input only, did work, as we expected. When you by a TI PCM270x UAC1 interface chip, it is bidirectional and limited to 48/16. Bidirectionally even 96/16 or 48/24 should work, too.

What I want to say: The Emagic with 2 ins and 6 outs (or vice versa) must be limited in the same way, too. And as far as I read, you have indeed different operating modes which seem even to allow concurrently different sample rates, different sample widths and different numbers of channels for each direction(!). To my point of view 2 x 96/24 in and 2 x 48/16 out could be feasible.

But I still doubt that it simply would work on my PC at all and particularly with 96/24.

And what should be the problem with our interface when it has no problems in UAC1 mode 96/24 on OS-X and when the only difference in the UAC1 protocol is a different parameter in its Audio Streaming Format Type Descriptor and the Endpoint Descriptor (AFAIK, at least)? And when these Parameters are obviously correct (I can send you the USB tree viewer report). And with a self-written primitive audio recording program, based on DirectSound, 96/24 works on my PC, too? Yes, it works!
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:29 pm

UweB wrote:BTW, MME, DirectSound and WASAPI:
Yes, it's 16-bit 44100 Hz only internally.
I read something similar, too. But the fact that using MME we get 96 and even 192 kHz recordings (but 16 bit only) tells me, that you shouldn't believe everything you read (or you shouldn't believe that you understand what is written...)

No one is saying that MME can't be resampled by Windows or Audacity, but natively it's 44100 Hz, as far as I understand it.

UweB wrote:Similar: Chris wrote that "WASAPI is the lowest level at which Windows accesses audio hardware. DirectSound is built on top of WASAPI." But wasn't WASAPI introduced after DirectSound? Or has WASAPI later been inserted underneath DirectSound in the sound processing stack (or however it is called in Windows)?

DirectSound is emulated on top of WASAPI on Vista and later. On XP, there is no WASAPI, and DirectSound thus has less latency than it does on Vista and later.

UweB wrote:And what should be the problem with our interface when it has no problems in UAC1 mode 96/24 on OS-X and when the only difference in the UAC1 protocol is a different parameter in its Audio Streaming Format Type Descriptor and the Endpoint Descriptor (AFAIK, at least)? And when these Parameters are obviously correct (I can send you the USB tree viewer report). And with a self-written primitive audio recording program, based on DirectSound, 96/24 works on my PC, too? Yes, it works!

That direct sound recorder works in XP, I think you have said. Does it work in Windows 10?


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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by UweB » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:54 pm

but natively it's 44100
With Audacity set to MME and 192000 Hz project rate I can make recordings from a 192 kHz source, and I can record frequencies up to close to 96 kHz. And the recorded signal is not an alias or something like that, it is the original signal. So the signal is obviously not resampled. If you want me to I can send you such a file that is recorded in this way.
DirectSound is emulated on top of WASAPI on Vista and later. On XP, there is no WASAPI, and DirectSound thus has less latency than it does on Vista and later.
Ok, that sounds plausible and was one of my suspicions.
That direct sound recorder works in XP, I think you have said. Does it work in Windows 10?
I'm working with Win 10 only and the self-written audio recorder was written in 8.1 (AFAIK) and I run it in Win 10, too. I could send you a 96/24 and a 192/16 recording made by this recorder, too. Or you can have a look on my PC via Teamviewer and verify that really everything is as I - well, as I believe it to be. I'm just very sure, but not more.
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by UweB » Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:17 pm

Hi guys,

I prepared a website with detailed explanations, information and screenshots in order to make clear what I observe under which circumstances and what I'm talking about. Maybe it helps in any way. Please have a look at:
http://beis.de/Elektronik/DA2USB/AudacityMMEvsWASAPI/Audacity_MME_vs_WASAPI.html
Should questions remain, I can add them to that website.
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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by Gale Andrews » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:18 pm

UweB wrote:
but natively it's 44100

With Audacity set to MME and 192000 Hz project rate I can make recordings from a 192 kHz source, and I can record frequencies up to close to 96 kHz. And the recorded signal is not an alias or something like that, it is the original signal. So the signal is obviously not resampled. If you want me to I can send you such a file that is recorded in this way.

It is contrary to what everyone else says that I have ever seen, but I have never tested it. Can you generate for example a 90000 Hz tone, record that at 192000 Hz using MME, and that tone is preserved?


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Re: 24-Bit Recording Status

Permanent link to this post Posted by UweB » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:38 pm

Hi Gale, I made such a recording and added it to the article I mentioned above (http://beis.de/Elektronik/DA2USB/AudacityMMEvsWASAPI/Audacity_MME_vs_WASAPI.html).

I describe all details there, too. The direct link is http://beis.de/Elektronik/DA2USB/AudacityMMEvsWASAPI/Audacity_MME_vs_WASAPI.html#TestSignal0to90kHz.

The recorded file can be downloaded from http://beis.de//Elektronik/DA2USB/AudacityMMEvsWASAPI/Rec_MME_192_0-90kHz.wav.
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